Talk:Pierrot

I've an impression that "Pierrot" is a French word. Not sure tho, but it's not an original English word? What's its meaning then? --210 01:11, 16 February 2007 (MST)

Pierrot on Wikipedia Kerochan no Miko 07:27, 16 February 2007 (MST)

Didn't know there's so much info behind this word. Thx. --210 07:47, 16 February 2007 (MST)

Should a Note be added linking to the Wikipedia article?--Dallbun 20:36, 10 April 2007 (MST)

Why not? It's also linked to Wikipedia in the Bipierrot article. --210 03:16, 11 April 2007 (MST)

Done. --210 03:31, 11 April 2007 (MST)

I'm not removing that part about the musical show "for no reason" - a random youtube video posted by someone with a camera isn't any more an official source than a fansite is. We need canon sources for information. Kerochan no Miko 18:40, 28 February 2012 (MST)

It's not random, we know it's footage from the special musical show, the actors, the sage, the songs; everything in the show itself is official, so if Pierrot were presents in that footage, it means that they were present during the show. We have used this footage for information before, why is not valid all of the sudden? --Sailorsimon 18:58, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Where have we used it as the sole source of information? Kerochan no Miko 19:13, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Many places actually, for example with the "Neo" thing and the song list, which by the way, you helped with as you can see in the discussion page under information, here: Talk:Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon SuperS Special Musical Show and here: User talk:Cartwheelingfiesta. Bottom line; it may be fan footage, but it's a fan footage of a very official musical, and what you see in it, is what happened; it matches with the plot, the casts list and everything else official we know about this musical. Unless you think it is a fake footage or something. It's also the only footage we have of this musical since it was not officially released. I mean, we are already lucky enough to have that footage alone and it just sounds (correct me, if I'm wrong) like you just want to spit on it and say that's it a totally invalid source of information; when its among the very little we actually have. I understand that it is a fan footage, but in such a case where the musical was not released to the public, fan footage is pretty much the best we can hope for, and I think we should be able to take what we can get from that footage and keave the rest if there is a disagreement. It might be unofficial, but it's not untrue. If you say that it is absolutely irrelevant, I have to say, I strongly disagree; the musical itself happened; and whether it was filmed by an audience member (who has the Myu fandoms' eternal gratitude, btw) or a professional cameraman hired by Bandai doesn't change that; the musical would have happened either way; what happened, happened regardless. I mean the official cast lists never lists any Pierrot or Usagizaru in either Yume Senshi musicals, but the footage allows us to see that they were indeed there. I thought we had come to an arrangement concerning that in fact; they can't go in the official cast list but they can be mentioned in the articles themselves; that's why we have the trivia section in the Special Musical Show article. I am making an effort here to understand your point and I am opened to concessions, but this footage does have its relevancy. Just because it was filmed by a fan, doesn't change what happened on stage with the official actors; characters; songs and plot elements. --Sailorsimon 19:48, 28 February 2012 (MST)

The only thing I see me saying on those linked talk pages is that it doesn't matter what's in the video, we need to use official sources for information. Which... is exactly what I said before, as well. I've said it before and I'll say it a hundred times, only official sources can be used as proof. This is not an official source. Therefore, my opinion and your opinion and anyone's opinion is not proof in this matter. Unless you have a canon source that lists the Pierrot in the cast then they can't be listed, period, end of story. Kerochan no Miko 20:06, 28 February 2012 (MST)

We're not talking about cast lists here, we are talking about the musical itself. Pierrot appeared in the musical itself, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. How is it not a fact? That's what I'm trying to understand.

Like I said I agreed that "Neo" could not go on the cast list because it wasn't in official sources; you agreed that we could mentioned it in the trivia section, which is exactly what happened and that's how we reached our agreement. Why is it suddenly different now? I'm genuinely kind of lost here. Why can't we do the same again? --Sailorsimon 20:29, 28 February 2012 (MST)

If you'd prefer that we remove the trivia note about the "Neo" stuff I'm perfectly fine with that. But the fact remains that even if there were characters that looked like Pierrot in that video, there is nothing that says they actually were Pierrot. I honestly don't understand why this is confusing. Kerochan no Miko 20:46, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never suggested to remove that trivia section, on the contrary I am proposing that we make trivia notes for Usagizaru and Pierrot, saying exactly what you said: creatures similar to them appeared in the Special Musical Show. That is all. --Sailorsimon 20:59, 28 February 2012 (MST)

....I didn't put words in your mouth. Now I'm really confused, because you're trying to say that I'm saying things that I didn't and I don't really know what's going on. o_O

I don't know that "creatures similar to Pierrot" appeared in the musical show at all. Maybe you think they did. I still don't see why this needs mentioning. Kerochan no Miko 21:24, 28 February 2012 (MST)

around 4:00, first scene, they encounter a creature that undoubtedly looks, acts and plays the same basic role as an Usagizaru, then Hawk's Eye appears with a clown-like servant who is dressed exactly like the Pierrot in Yume Senshi, which makes perfect sense considering the musical is basically a follow-up from Yume Senshi. I'm just asking if you could look at it and tell me if you think I'm wrong that they are similar and play a similar role? --Sailorsimon 21:31, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Follow up.

1) There's no proof that this is a recording of the show in question.

2) My opinion isn't the important thing here. Kerochan no Miko 21:44, 28 February 2012 (MST)

What else could it be, logically; given that it matches everything official we know about this musical? There is no proof that it isn't and more indications that it is. The absence of proof is not a proof. --Sailorsimon 21:56, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Logic isn't the issue, either. Canon sources are the issue, and this is not a canon source and nothing will make it one. Kerochan no Miko 22:02, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Well... there goes my plan to make a summary for it... :( --Sailorsimon 22:24, 28 February 2012 (MST)

I don't know how you would make a summary for it anyway when that video isn't subtitled and you don't speak Japanese. Kerochan no Miko 22:27, 28 February 2012 (MST)

You don't speak Japanese either, and do you honestly need to in order to understand what's basically going on? I understand Japanese enough to make a summary, besides they pretty much just repeat all of their lines from the Yume Senshi musicals, since the plot is basically the same. And if you are going to say that this footage is not canon and can't be relied on, then all the edits I make need to stay, since the information were all solely based on that footage. --Sailorsimon 22:33, 28 February 2012 (MST)

One thing is for sure; without this footage, we basically have nothing. --Sailorsimon 22:37, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Personally, I think this footage falls under Fanon, because it's content is an official musical.--Sailorsimon 22:41, 28 February 2012 (MST)

Not all of the information you decided to summarily remove was based on the fan video. And whether or not I understand Japanese (which I actually do, though not well, not sure where you got the idea I don't at all) isn't at all important here so I don't know why you're bringing it up. Kerochan no Miko 06:53, 29 February 2012 (MST)

And yes; if you'll look at his page: Talk:Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon SuperS Special Musical Show, you'll see that the only thing official we have from the archive site you provided (which doesn't work anymore, btw) is the cast list; nothing else except some minor information. There was only a single official flyer from the show. And I feel the need to point out that you said: "According to videos on YouTube the list was entirely different." which pretty much shows that not so long ago, you were fine with using that footage as a source since we didn't have any other source. --Sailorsimon 13:31, 29 February 2012 (MST)

And we came up with an agreement about the trivia section, which AGAIN is perfectly fine with me and I quote you again: "If she isn't credited as being in the cast list then she can't go on the cast list. However, if you want to make a trivia note about it, that's fine." also: "can we atleast make a trivia note or something about it? -- Sailor Simon 20:37, 4 May 2011" to which you answered: "Sure, that makes sense. Kerochan no Miko 17:41, 4 May 2011 (MST)"

See... this is where I'm confused, one minute you say we can make a trivia note about it, and the next you say: no. I'm just like... why? I thought we had an understanding. And it could go something like; according to the fan footage of the show, ... --Sailorsimon 13:37, 29 February 2012 (MST)

The issue is, now that you've brought this up I've realized that I probably shouldn't have allowed it at all in the first place, so now I'm trying to decide whether to go ahead with this or to just remove all the non-sourced material entirely. Kerochan no Miko 19:07, 29 February 2012 (MST)

If I may, I think it would be regrettable to loose all of it simply because the show was filmed by a fan. Like I proposed; we could simply tell the truth, that according to the fan footage of the show, ... for three reasons;

1) It is well assumed by the majority of Myu fandom (as you can see in comment sections and on the majority of Myu sites and forums were that video is available or talked about; ex: Sera Myu Antic, Miss Dream, etc.) that this is indeed the right show because it fits everything that is official about it; the plot, the cast, the characters, etc. So, if they look for it here, they'll most likely go into the Special Musical Show article.

2) The footage is clearly not of a fan event or something of the sort; it is a musical with a plot, a story-line, plot-related songs and characters, and among the musicals that were not released, only one was set in the Yume Senshi/Sailor Moon SuperS Arc, we know that for a fact; so it would only make sense therefore, that this be it. Furthermore, since we have so little information to begin with, I don't think it would be so inappropriate to take what we can get from this footage who clearly shows an official musical with an official cast, official songs, props and everything; I mean, at some point we are human beings, I think it is important that we use our judgment in these type of matters. I do believe that what you think matters or else I wouldn't have ask for your opinion in the first place. I think you are an intelligent person who can see for herself that it makes sense. I know, you said logic isn't the matter here, but since you are going to make a choice; since you are going to have to take a decision in this situation, I don't think logic really is irrelevant here. I encourage you to make that choice while taking in consideration what I think, although I know you don't have to. I'm pretty much just begging you here to try and see my side of the argument and try to understand my reasoning, so that we can come to some sort of agreement; which I though we had in the past. I ask this because it seems clear to me that both of us have a hard time understanding each other, which unfortunately leads me to sometimes think that you are attacking me when you're not and vice versa, I believe (don't know if it's the language barrier thing, since English is not my first language or just the fact that I am a little bit dumb and sometimes confusing). Also, I would like to point out that Sailor Moon and, especially Sera Myu exists thanks to its fandom; I don't think using this fan footage would be such a stretch. Like I said, we are already lucky that someone bothered to film this in the first place.

3) This REALLY would be an exceptional case because it is the ONLY footage of an unreleased musical that exists. In such a RARE case, I believe an exception would not be out of order. We only need to specify that some of our information relies on the fan footage and as long as it doesn't contradict the official information, I don't see where the arm would be in doing something like that.

P.S.; I removed the information in the first place only because I thought that was what you wanted, although I thought and still think it would just be sad and very unfortunate to loose all of that and I was happy when you changed my edits because I thought you had changed your mind (again, clearly it was because I misunderstood you, so please bear with me if I'm sometimes confusing or accusatory). I think you know deep down by now, that I am committed to contribute to this site as best as I can. I don't want to fight you here, I'm just trying to voice my opinion regarding this, again very rare matter since you'll be the one to make the final decision, which I'm cool with. --Sailorsimon 21:26, 29 February 2012 (MST)

Had I wanted that information removed, I would have done it myself. The fact that you simply went and summarily removed a lot of information, some of which actually had a basis in official material, came very near to counting as vandalism. I hope you understand that I was very, very displeased by that, especially given your history on this site.

I am and have been considering this and have yet to come to a decision, because it's going to set a precedent for the wiki. If any other users have thoughts on the matter I would like to hear it. Sailorsimon, you have said more than your piece and I'll take it into consideration; please don't keep harassing me about it. Kerochan no Miko 21:37, 29 February 2012 (MST)